juni4ling

Can you just once not resort to strawmen?

Can you just once realize that the question asked was directly related to the Biblical model for prophet.

Why not acknowledge that addressing that question is not a strawman.

You engage in the logical fallacy of special pleading and denial of basic facts of the argument.

At no point did I accuse you of refusing to admit that ‘Smith got things wrong.’ At no point did I accuse you of not being critical of some of Smith’s actions. You’re dancing around what I actually did say - your repetitive comments try so very hard to place Joseph Smith on the same level of Biblical prophets and gods, but how or why is that warranted?

I was addressing this question from this poster…

“According to the Bible, just one failed prophecy and you put that "prophet" to death. Deuteronomy 18:20-22.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1vq16p0/comment/p436mbx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Its just a few posts up from your post.

‘Joseph Smith was a rapist who preyed on underage girls.’

No question.

Biblical polygamy gave no choice to women, and the age for marriage was very young in the Bible. And Smith practiced Biblical polygamy.

No question.

You stated an unarguable fact.

Smith practiced Biblical polygamy and those things you said—are Biblical.

When someone states something like this, can you explain why you feel the need to bring up the Bible, to insist that rape (or forced marriage, or treating women like property, or mormon god telling Emma Smith if she doesn’t accept polygamy she will be destroyed - basically any misogynistic thing that Joseph Smith did) is not condemned within those verses?

Those things are wrong and immoral and undefendable. I will not defend them.

But they are Biblical.

Underage marriage—Biblical.

Women not having a choice—Biblical.

Polygamy—Biblical.

I can condemn those things. Those things are wrong and immoral. Those things are undefendable.

But the Bible (which should only ever be used carefully by ethical and moral people as a guide) is a horrific moral and ethical guide.

Can you explain why it’s important to attempt to convince people that Jesus Christ himself apparently doesn’t think Joseph Smith did anything wrong?

That is not what I said.

Why do you do that…?

Christ in the Bible does not condemn underage marriage or set the limit for young girls to be sold into marriage.

Christ in the Bible does not give women their property rights.

And polygamy and concubines are normative in the Bible.

But—the Bible has error. Perhaps Christ did condemn underage marriage and the writers left it out.

Polygamy—Biblical.

Underage marriage—Biblical.

Women being property—Biblical.

I worry you think that means its ok ethically and morally. It is wrong ethically and morally.

Can you honestly not see how callous and offensive and dismissive that is when speaking about rape and the subjugation of girls and women?

I condemn abuse and the subjugation of girls and women.

I worry you have not actually -read- the Bible, though. And its hurting your ability to discuss the Bible.

Smith is an abuser who engaged in unethical and immoral behavior. There is no defense for Smiths practice of Biblical polygamy. None.

Do you personally think that Jesus Christ condones rape?

What Smith did would not meet the Biblical definition of wrongdoing.

But I consider what Smith did to be wrong.

What we know from Christ from Bible writers is that God/Christ mandated polygamy in the Old Testament, established that women were property in the Bible, and allowed for young women to be sold into marriage.

Me? I think the Bible writers got some number of things wrong in what they included in the Bible and excluded from the Bible.

If the answer is no, why do you choose to throw him under the bus in order to defend Joseph Smith?

I worry you have not actually read the Bible and its hurting your ability to discuss the Bible.

Polygamy—Biblical. Its wrong, but its Biblical.

Underage marriage—Biblical. Its wrong. But its Biblical.

Women being property—Biblical. Its wrong. But its Biblical.

The Bible writers writing for Christ did not have Him (capital H Him) give women their rights, end slavery, or stop child marriages.

Its morally and ethically wrong.

Its undefendable.

Polygamy and underage marriage is wrong in the Bible and in LDS Christianity.

Did Christ (the Bible writers writing for Christ) give women their property rights, or end slavery, or end the practice of underage marriage? If that is you question—no. Christ did not end those things.

Those things are still morally and ethically wrong.

Why (and this is what you continuously refuse to answer) are you responding to criticism of Smith by stating that what he did was ‘biblical,’

Smith practiced Biblical polygamy and Biblical polygamy was Biblical.

I am just simply making a truthful statement. Smith practiced Biblical polygamy.

that Jesus Christ never condemned child marriage, or set a minimum age for marriage, or didn’t say women aren’t property, etc?

That is correct. Christ did not do those things.

He did not end human chattel slavery—either.

Since Joseph Smith is not a prophet from the Bible, was not someone Jesus personally knew or spoke about in the Bible, what is your actual point?

In this thread, I was answering a question about the qualifications of Biblical prophet.

A poster posted that Smith didn’t meet the qualifications, and I was posting how the standard for Biblical prophet can include failure, sin, and failed prophesy.

The fact that you later say that Smith was wrong to prey on girls, and that it was also wrong in the Bible is meaningless if it is preceded by citing the Bible, as if the morals of an ancient, profoundly misogynistic society, featuring many characters who may not have even been actual people, have some kind of legitimate connection to the crimes of a self-proclaimed prophet from the 1800s.

Believe it or not there are some number of posters who believe the Biblie is a perfect history book without an error. I have seen (I am not making this up) posters post to “ministries” that actively teach that the Bible is perfect and without error—inerrant.

That means there are people who do use the Bible as a moral and ethical guide.

Even some number of LDS Christians use the Bible as a moral and ethical guide.

Right here in this thread a poster posted that they thought that Smiths error, sin, and false prophecy disqualified Smith as a prophet to the Biblical standard.

By the hoarding of wealth and where they spend it,

When I was growing up we would go to the Church potato farm in West Valley and help pick potatoes. It was vast. And surrounded by houses. The potato picker would not get all the potatoes so we would walk through the furrows and get the potatoes the tractor had missed. I was like eight years old. Some of the adults said, “this property is worth a great deal of money.”

At eight years old I learned that the LDS Church has a great deal of money.

I also learned it while picking food that was going to someone else. So maybe that was a healthy way of learning the LDS Church had money.

The LDS Church has a great deal of money. It also sustains a welfare arm. Critics will often lump the farms, canneries, and wealth held in the welfare arm into the total monetary value of the Church.

And saving money is not necessarily “hoarding.” And I would rather see saving than extravagant spending on lifestyles.

And the United States government has engaged in debt spending for the last several decades The deficit has exploded over the last 10 years. The United States economy is a bubble right now.

Everyone should have savings. Individuals should have savings.

“There is no bubble, deficit spending is wonderful with no ill consequences, deficit spending while prices and inflation increase is no problem at all!” -No economist is making those claims. They are all warning about exploding prices, unregulated markets, insider trading, deficit spending and the economic bubble that might pop.

The US economy is being held up by leaders making false statements on wars ending the night before the markets open the next day. And openly giving access to social media posts that will affect market performance—to those who pay for it. That is insider trading. We are in a ecnomic bubble right now. I hope it does not burst. I hope the markets do not crash. But having funding that can last through a economic downturn is not a bad idea right now for organizations and individuals.

My Ward right now is helping several people down on their luck. And the LDS Church helps people. Period. It also sustains other religions welfare arms. It can do more, though.

history of child abuse and pedophilia,

No excuse or defense for that.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has engaged in cover-up of abuse of children.

I had a good experience. My wife had a good experience growing up. My -now adult- kids had good experiences growing up. My wife and I went to every campout pretty much every activity. My kids talk about how much their Church leaders helped them and loved them. The LDS Church was a safe place for me to raise my kids. LDS Christianity helped my relationship with my family and my kids.

But. The same cannot be said. One example is too many. And every example is a horror story.

I think the Church needs to implement the “Millstone Rule” where there is zero tolerance for abuse and those who abuse children can never ever step foot on Church property.

survaillence of members (e.g. on missions),

I served a Mission and had a good time. In some cases I feel like Church leaders checking on literal kids on Missions is to keep them safe.

I am not sure I see this one. I live in the Midwest and most of my friends are not-LDS. I go to Church, serve in Church and don’t really think I am surveilled. I see critics of the Church who follow my posts for criticisms-- more than faithful. I see critics do this and don’t understand the criticism for the Church on this.

The Church does have high standards and personal standards interviews with clergy. They can go away. Or be changed to a more personal one on one religious talk or time with adults. The kids ones can be with parents and again should not necessarily be about personal worthiness.

I guess I do not understand this one. I see critics surveil the Church and try to surveil members and leaders.

There are instances where critics of the Church have been excommunicated for “apostasy” and I disagree with that. That’s nuts. Kick out the child abusers. Let the critics stay. If they want to stay. Literally staying home from Church on Sunday is leaving. If they want to leave, let them. If they want to criticize the Church, let them. Who cares. Kick out the abusers, let the critics stay.

The people who follow me and surveil me-- to comment on my commentary on the internet—critics. I don’t think anyone from the LDS Church cares. But critics do.

gaslighting, lying,

I have been a member my entire life and I don’t feel like I have been gaslit or lied to.

I do see that in critics of the Church. I see half-truths, misrepresentations and often gaslighting—from critics. Sometimes.

I see an organization that is trying to do the right thing when I see LDS Christians trying to operate the LDS Church.

And I have seen those things from critics of the Church.

failed prophecies, problematic contradictions...

That is baked into the cake of LDS Christianity. Failure, contradictions—that is part of the system.

And if anyone says that is unique to LDS Christianity—get a fire extinguisher because their pants are about to burst on fire from being lying liars who lie.

LDS Christianity has failed prophecies and contradictions.

No question.

But… LDS Christianity does not accept inerrancy in scripture, the Church or its leaders. That means there is going to be error, problems, contradiction—and failure.

The hard polytheistic Bible—contradicts itself. The teachings and beliefs in LDS Christianity do the same as the Bible? Makes sense. Sure.

Failure and contradictions have been part of the religious system since Bible times.

“But my Church is perfect and the Bible is a perfect history book without a single error written by the finger of deity and it is inerrant.”—Lying liar who lies.

Failure, contradictions, and error –sometimes extreme error and abuse—are part of the system. The Bible codifies human chattel slavery and is used by Fundamentalist Christian “the Bible is inerrant” groups like the Klan, Turning Point, and Proud Boys as a text that supports abuse of others. And those groups will tell you that the Bible is the only source of Gods truth and it is inerrant. They thrive in Churches that teach the Bible is perfect and inerrant.

Failure, contradictions, and error are part of LDS Christianity? Yes. That is true. LDS Christianity also teaches that the scriptures, the Church itself, and its leaders are not inerrant.

Anyone who tells you that there are zero failed prophecies or contradictions in the Bible—is lying their head off to you.

Critics from other faiths will couple accusations of failed prophesy in LDS Christianity and failures in operation of the LDS Church—and compare that to the “perfect, inerrant” Bible. That’s pants on head nuts.

Abuse of children—simply do an internet search for their Church and “child abuse cover up.” And you will see. The LDS Church is not the only Church with this catastrophic and undefendable problem.

Church finances—simply do an internet search and see the “top” leaders in the LDS Church are not the highest paid. Regular workers are paid more, and BYU professors and coaches are paid more in many cases. The leader of the Red Cross is paid millions. And the -estimates- for the LDS leaders are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars—compared to public school administrators in Utah. Millionaires? If they save and invest their money.

Separately, there are secretaries in my organization who put their money into the matching program and will be millionaires when they retire. Maybe not if the market crashes. But there are many Churches locally who did not make it through Covid. They made it week to week on their bills and missing a few weeks was all it took. Then there are Churches where it is clear that it is simply a money making operation for the leaders. That is not the case in LDS Christianity. “They have vast sums saved!” Yeah, that is correct. The $1 donation was invested and now its $10. That is a good thing. Wise investing is a good thing. Churches that do not save money and invest are going to have trouble making it in the long run. Especially if they have retirement programs for Church employees. Many Churches retirement program was “we will take the donations from members and pay for the retirement program of retirees.” The problem—Churches shrink, many fail, and a retired pastor might be up a creek if her or his retirement was tied to future tithes of the Church. The LDS Church? That is the path other Churches should take—save and invest and have an ability to take care of Church retirees.

⁠Nobody is perfect

No one is perfect except for Christ in LDS Christian theology.

⁠Angels and visions ceased

Angels attend Missionaries… In the Presence of Angels

⁠Miracles ceased

If you need a limb regrown, you are out of luck. But if you consider Missionaries baptizing people, miracles are happening.

⁠We will immediately learn everything once we get to Heaven

Eternal progression means eternal learning.

⁠God loves us so we don’t need to fear judgement day

The Book of Mormon teaches, “His grace is sufficient.”

⁠God was never a man in mortality

This is what Smith taught, “God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”

⁠We will never become like the father populating worlds without end

LDS Christianity currently teaches theosis/deification.

⁠God doesn’t have a father before him
⁠Garden of Eden isn’t in Missouri

Missouri has been and will be the site of many key events in Church history. It was the location of the Garden of Eden and Adam-ondi-Ahman, where Adam gathered his posterity for a final blessing (see D&C 107:53–57).

Independence: Living in Zion

⁠You shouldn’t pray for signs or visitations

LDS Christian Missionaries tell everyone they meet to pray to know if The Book of Mormon is true.

We aren’t “literally”children of God

I question anyone claiming this as LDS Christians.

And it goes on forever. Why do members not believe in their own religion anymore? And what other false doctrines have you noticed being said?

Dehinls podcast Episode 2117

12:04

I should add one more thing. A few years ago some people reached out to me who claimed that they were additional victims of Wade Christofferson. And Im always torn when someone tells me they are a victim. Because on the one hand I always want to love and believe victims. I also could do a daily [] episode with alleged victims of [horrific[ abuse because we get 1000 applicants to [the podcast] every year. And pretty much every applicant claims to be a victim of [unspeakable] abuse.

So, I cannot have [my podcast] be only about victims of [unspeakable] abuse.

So that is a complicating factor.

I also do not want to get sued for defamation. I also want to be careful not to never falsely accuse an innocent person.

So whenever someone comes to me as a victim. There are so many things Mari and I have to think about whether or not we want to cover the story.

But these people did come to me. And I am speaking vaguely intentionally.

And they said, “we are victims of Wade Christofferson. Brother of Todd and Tom Christofferson.”

[Dehlin is close friends with Tom]

And I did not know what to do about it at the time. But I wasn’t going to just do an episode for all the reasons I just said.

So what I did is I shared that information with where I thought it would do the most good. And the feedback I got was that Wade denied the allegations and he was not even in the country during the time these victims claimed he had abused them.

So I am mixed about did I cover up something unintentionally. But then again I am not the Police. And I cannot go an investigate personally every allegation that is made to me.

[Dehlin and Dehlins staff personally investigated gay members actively attending and participating in Church.]

So that is another tidbit of information that I have been sitting with regarding Wade that is added a complicating factor.

And now this has come out about Wade and his own family members and additional victims. Of course it makes me think that these other victims probably had credible claims.

Having said that these victims who came to me about Wade told me he was excommunicated for adultery. Not fore child abuse.

Zarahemla wouldn't do anything for the "faith and religious claims" but it would absolutely fill the requirement for meeting historical claims, which is what I am talking about.

The Bible is a bad history book. There is no way around that. McClellan starts laughing at the claim that the Bible can be proven historically.

And the faith and religious claims are what I am talking about. Jerusalem being a place or the Heartland model fitting the narrative or whatever—does nothing to prove the faith and religious claims made by either book.

I don’t think that claiming the bible shows that the god of Adam was heretically changed to the god of Abraham is the flex you want.

Here is my claim… Bible archeology proves God was married, and She was worshipped alongside God in ancient Israel.

That is my claim.

And the Bible was changed to remove her during Josiahs reforms.

That is my claim.

And it means that the LDS doctrine is in error, citing that God polygamy is God’s celestial mode of marriage.

Latter-day Saint Christian doctrine allows for God to be married.

“The Bible is a perfect history book without error” religions almost always have no room for the Bible being polytheistic and ancient Israel being polytheistic.

LDS Christianity has room for it.

The bible absolutely can be taken without faith and we can see that certain claims are met with any faith being required.

No faith or religious claims of the Bible can be met with archeology evidence. None.

Same as the Book of Mormon.

Many locations, events and people can be confirmed.
The BoM cannot be treated that way.

Some elements of the Bible like places and people can be confirmed. But that does nothing to confirm any faith or religious claims.

“We know were Jerusalem is so therefore, there was a resurrection.” That is a -dogmatic- leap.

There is nothing in the BoM, aside from the claimed origin city of Jerusalem, that can be accepted without “faith”.

Apologists have long lists.

Just like apologists for the Bible.

Your claim that the bible can only be taken with faith is in error. It applies to the BoM only.
This isn't in any form, a "both sides" argument.

I worry that you think that since we can point to Jerusalem, and -some- Bible claims as a real place, then all of the Bible is on par with the Book of Mormon.

That is a leap.

Both the Bible and Book of Mormon faith and religious claims can only be taken with faith and religious belief.

“We know where Jerusalem is, and we know that 500 people saw the resurrection, so therefore it happened. The Bible is a history book.”

No. No. The Bible is not a history book. And much of it contradicts itself.

The Book of Mormon and the Bible can only be taken with faith and religious belief.

God CANNOT LIE!.

God lied in the Bible…

Genesis 2 and 3 where God tells Adam and Eve that eating the fruit will cause them to die. The serpent calls it out as a lie and when they eat and don't die the lie is proved.

Bible contradictions #1: Does god lie? | The Atheist Papers

If Jesus Lied then He was not perfect and thefore the Atonement is for naught and we are all doomed! Do you have any idea what you are actually saying?!

Its more than likely that the Bible writers made an error.

But as the Bible is written, Jesus gave a false prophesy…

Was Jesus a False Prophet? - The Bart Ehrman Blog

God doesn't mess around, He doesn't lie nor does He select a prophet that lies.

Latter-day Saint Christianity does not accept infallibility in Gods chosen leaders.

Gods chosen leaders in the Bible made mistakes. Smith made mistakes.

Bible writers made mistakes.

The God of the Bible condones mass murder, genocide, polygamy and concubines, women being property and human chattel slavery.

God does not work through crooked paths.

That is all God has to choose from.

Broken sinful people.

And the Bible is a horrific moral and ethical guide.

You want to believe Joseph was a liar because it makes things easier, then you dont have to scrutinize what the church teaches.

I scrutinize what the Church teaches, and participate in heavily critical boards.

But, every people thinks they are the more righteous group and every people is required to cast off the traditions of their fathers and align themselves to God's will.

Polygamy in the Bible was sin. Not giving women rights—considering them property—is sin.

The Bible is a horrific moral and ethical guide.

Smith and LDS Christian polygamy was sin. There is no ethical and moral defense for it.

No one's excusing shit.

Actually, you said that Smith painted himself into a corner.

He was in jail. Awaiting trial.

He was incarcerated in a jail cell and –at the time—a threat to no one.

You said that, Smith painted himself into a corner. Yet he was waiting for a fair and impartial trial.

I'm just saying martyr is too generous a descriptor for Smith.

“He… painted himself into a corner with self-interested bullshit that pissed off the wrong people.”

That’s some beaten-wife syndrome right there.

His actions, had they been against more civilized people, would not have led to his murder, but 1840s Missouri/Illinois was a bit more rough and tumble and people behave (regrettably) irrationally sometimes when they're pushed.

Smith was pushing people to murder him?

No.

Smith was awaiting a fair and impartial trial.

Smith was murdered by people who had called for his murder, “with powder and ball” prior to his murderr.

"Cold blooded" is also a bit overly generous to Smith, given that he was packing when he died.

Smith was incarcerated at the time of his murder. Incarcerated and waiting a fair and impartial trial.

Cold blooded murder is cold blooded murder.

The weapon Smith used is on full display in SL UT at the museum across from Temple Square. Has been since like the late 1980s. Self defense is ok in LDS Christianity.

There is zero justification for cold blooded murder.

"Data from national public health and child advocacy organizations show that approximately 1 in 4 girls in the United States experience childhood sexual abuse before the age of 18,"This is wild. You provide a chart. Showing Utah is 22/52. Your data provided the rank. I just repeated –your—data.

Me deflecting for commenting on data that -you- provided? Eh? It contradicts your narrative. It contradicts Dehlins narrative. I am deflecting from Dehlins narrative.

Dehlin claimed that Utah has a rate of 1:5 for child abuse. Which is higher than the 1:7 national rate. When the national rate is 1:4.

Link already provided.

We are not ranking states because this isn't a contest. We are comparing Utah to the Nation.

We are not going to compare, but we are going to compare!

Any statistic is a comparison.

Utah –in the data you provided- falls roughly in the middle of states for child abuse. 22/52. That is data that -you- provided. Slightly above the national average. With 21 states worse.

Its -all- bad that it happens at all.

But Dehlin claims that Utahs rate of 1:5 is higher than the national average when the national average is 1:4. Link provided already.

Every single child abuse organization reports averages first. Why do you think that is?

Averages are important. Dehlin makes the claim that comparatively Utah is more dangerous than other states. Which is not necessarily true. Per the data I have provided. And it’s a mistake to correlate Utah data directly with the LDS Church.

You're correct. But if we're going to try and compare LDS cultural behaviors vs the rest of the nation, Utah is the best way to go.

I am not so sure about that. Only half of the state is LDS and only half of those actually go.

Which creates a problem in these kinds of discussions.

Also, I know people who want to and have moved to Utah for the schools and outdoors and better/safer communities. And they don’t drink. Or they drink very little.

If you want to move to Utah to go on long hikes and stay in shape—you already eat healthy, don’t smoke and drink responsibly if at all.

The statistics Dehlin (and you, I guess) ignore about Utah being a safe place and a family friendly place with lots of outdoors activities—all the people I know who move there are not LDS, but want a family in a big house in a big neighborhood with good schools—and they do not drink or smoke.

Utah has some good numbers for safety—because it is known for that and people who can afford to move there—move there for that reason.

Utah statistics do not reflect directly on the LDS Church.

That is point number one.

Point number two.

Critics have to ignore some good numbers about safety in Utah to focus on the bad numbers—which is what Dehlin does.

We are not talking about crime! We are talking about child abuse.

Child abuse is a crime. Utah is -overall- a safe place, even for kids.

Even in the worst of the worst crimes –that are statistically rare—(child abuse) Utah is still better –in the worst of the worst crimes—than 21 other states.

These are two things committed by completely different types of people, in completely different types of circumstances, and need completely different types of protections.

Utah is overall a safe place, statistically. By rank and by statistics. There is no way around that.

People are statistically healthier there. They participate more in outdoor activities and they are safer. Statistically, and by rank.

So let's look at those rankings, for your sake, but things that actually have to do with children.

Utah has a lot of stay at home moms.

Which, depending on how you look at it can be good and bad. But that hurts the statistics on women working.

- They ranked 37th in safety for LGBTQ+ safety

Utah is going up. That is a good thing. I bet they were 50/50 30 years ago.

Lets celebrate improvement.

- They were ranked 50th in women's equality

My wife works. I support women working. Women work at lower rates in Utah, and that hurts this ranking.

So yes, Utah ranks 21st in the country on reported child abuse

That is correct. 22/52—21 states worse than Utah.

But we are not actually interested in ranking. Rankings are for news articles.

You just did some rankings on gay safety and women working. Rankings are fine for comparisons. Which you -just- did.

We care that the National rate is 7.2, and Utah's is 9.4.

We care a lot about that. Every one of those is undefendable. A catastrophic blight on American society.

1 in four women will reach adulthood and claim to be an abuse victim nationally.

1 in five women –from Dehlin/USU in Utah will reach adulthood and claim to be an abuse victim.

There is no way around the numbers. Each one is undefendable. We need to do more to protect children.

And we care because the church’s institutional presence and cultural presence is ingrained in the history of the state.

There is the hook.

I am not sure its fair to take Utah numbers and say anything other than that they are Utah numbers.

That—and Utah for it having an institutional presence that I think you insinuate is bad and Dehlin openly says is bad—is no where near the worst state.

Remember that this is a ormon subreddit. We’re not here to compare, we’re here to talk about Mormonism.

I appreciate that you provided comparisons and statistics. Some discussions invite comparison.

Like this one.

When Dehlin says that Utah statistics reflect directly on the LDS Church and Utah compares poorly on crime statistics—the discussion is opening the door for a comparison. The discussion would be one sided and make no logical sense without a comparison.