237 Falsehoods In CES Letter | Conflict of Justice

Answers To CES Letter Issues | Conflict of Justice

How CES Letter’s Repetition Reinforces Skepticism | Conflict of Justice

 

An Incident Concerning Page 81 of “Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?”

An Incident Concerning Page 81 of "Mormonism--Shadow or Reality?" | FAIR

 

It claims to be the true church and that the other churches are wrong.

Latter-day Saint Christianity claims, ““Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. . . . We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true ‘[Latter-day Saints].’”

I am not sure that I can agree with this statement. Latter-day Saints claim to be right.

They claim to be a “true and living Church.” But most other Christian denominations won’t disagree of us being a rarity for being a “living Church” with an open canon and continuing revelation.

 

"for they were ALL wrong" (JSH 1:19)

I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight;

Latter-day Saint Christians are not the only Christian denomination with problems with the creeds.

Critical historians –including Dan McClellan—and the academic concensus is that creedal Christianity does not match pre-creed Christianity. That’s not just LDS Chrisitanity with a problem with the creeds.

 

 

"ALL their creeds were an abomination" (JSH 1:19)

That is the academic concensus, pretty much. Creedal trinitarianism was not a thing before the creeds.

Latter-day Saint Christianity is not the only Christian denomination with an issue with the creeds.

 

"those professors were ALL corrupt" (JSH 1:19)

The religions that Smith said he was choosing among—were all creedal trinitarian religions.

 

 

"there are save TWO churches ONLY; the ONE is the church of the Lamb of God, and the OTHER is the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10)

There are two groups in the world—those fighting good. And those fighting for good.

“So if other religions have truth and if our religion does not have all truth then how can our Church be the only true Church?” https://rationalfaiths.com/save-two-churches/

 

"the ONLY true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased" (D&C 1:30)

What that means and what that does not mean…

https://rsc.byu.edu/witness-restoration/joseph-smith-only-true-living-church

1. It does not mean that men and women of other Christian faiths are not sincere believers in truth and genuine followers of the Christ. Latter-day Saints have no difficulty whatsoever accepting a person’s personal affirmation that they are Christian, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God, their Savior, the Lord and Master of their life. Nor are Latter-day Saints the only ones entitled to personal illumination and divine guidance for their lives.

2. It does not mean that they are worshiping “a different Jesus,” as many in the Christian world often say of the Latter-day Saints. True Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth, the promised Messiah.

 

"although a man should be baptized an hundred times (outside of the LDS church) it availeth him nothing," (D&C 22:2)

I have seen creedal trinitarian Churches claim Latter-day Saint Christianity is not Christian. And not accept LDS Christian baptism.

My kids were not accepted into a Christian school because of our Latter-day Saint Christianity.

 

Every time a member of the LDS church goes through a temple endowment session, they are reminded that they are under the devil's power if they do not embrace the Mormon way.

Fair answers this old school “Godmakers” accusation… “This is inconceivable since temple-goers must demonstrate and declare they are living high moral standards, everything Satan is against. A similar charge was made against Christ by his accusers.”

 So, these are all problems we have to deal with." (Richard Bushman, Interview with Bill Reel, November 21, 2015, https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2015/11/perspectives-richard-bushman/)

I can see where you cut off. And -why-

Bushman still believes.

Bill Reel believed and was a believer at the time of the interview.

Here is what you (you are just copying and pasting from critical material. Here is whoever you are copying from left out)...

Nineish minute mark...

"These are all problems we have to deal with, ON THE OTHER HAND there are things that are very ancient like the first chapter of First Nephi. With what is called the throne theophany which is very ancient form of revelation which is where you see the Lord on His Throne coming down. And all the way through. So I think I don't know quite where to stand on this I think its a puzzle. But I think we have to go back to Blake Ostlers Dialogue Essay in 1985 where he talked about the Book of Mormon being an expanded text. I don't think it comes out of Joseph Smiths mind. I don't think he knew enough to put all that stuff in the Book of Mormon... (mumbles) modern ring to it. I think we are left with a puzzle. I personally believe in the Nephites. When I read those stories they seem awfully real to me. I can't imagine Joseph Smith writing them. There are too many strange things in there. We are left in a dilemma...

Bushmans whole quote has Bushman saying he thinks the Nephites are real. He also says he does not mind people who take the hard apologetic approach of Ostler and Skousen and say that the Book of Mormon is not historical.

Bill Reel goes on to say he does not think the Book of Mormon is historical, but he believes in it anyway, and says it brings people closer to Christ.

Blake Ostler in 1985

Dialogue_V20N01_68.pdf

Skousen... 1997

How Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon

 How Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1186&context=jbms

 There are many other translations that do the Greek justice more than the KJV does, in spite of how much I love the KJV.

ϨΝ ΤЄϨΟΥЄΙΤЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝϬΙ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΑΥШ ΠϢΑϪЄ ΝЄϤϢΟΟΠ ΝΝΑϨΡΜ ΠΝΟΥΤЄ ΑΥШ ΝЄΥΝΟΥΤΕ ΠЄ ΠϢΑϪЄ John 1:1 (Sahidic Coptic text)

Transliteration: Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje

Literal English translation: In the beginning existed the word. And the word existed in the presence of God. And a god was the word.

1808: "and the Word was a god" – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1822: "and the Word was a god" – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.)

1863: "and the Word was a god" – A Literal Translation of the New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863)

1864: "and a god was the Word" – The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London (left hand column interlinear reading)

1885: "and the Word was a god" – Concise Commentary on The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885)

1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

These square well with the meaning of the JST of John 1:1.

 

Marriage laws taught in the scriptures which Joseph Smith transgressed:

1. No concubines: Jacob 2:27

Smith had “concubines?” That’s news to me.

Smith practiced polygamy.

Jacob 2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

 

2. No marrying sisters: Leviticus 18:18

Leviticus does not apply to Christians:

Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the law.” Colossians 2:13-14 says that God "forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

3. No polyandry: Romans 7:3

From Mormonr

Did Joseph have sex with his plural wives who had legal husbands?

Possibly, though it seems unlikely that sexual polyandry would have gone undetected or uncontested by the legal husband, especially ones who were disaffected, excommunicated, or never Latter-day Saints.[179] There is some historical evidence that may support this arrangement for two of Joseph's polyandrous marriages;[180] however, historians disagree on this subject.[181][182]

              https://mormonr.org/qnas/VvSJBb/joseph_smith_and_polygamy

 

4. No marrying mother/daughter: Leviticus 20:14

 

Leviticus does not apply to Christians:

Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the law.” Colossians 2:13-14 says that God "forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

 

5. No marrying virgins without your wife’s consent: D&Cov 132:61

Smith does not violate D+C 132:63

Or Doctrine and Covenants 132:39

David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife;

6. No cross dressing sex/marriage: Deut. 22:5

Did Smith Cross dress?

Deuteronomy does not apply to Christians:

Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the law.” Colossians 2:13-14 says that God "forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

 

7. No adultery, Lev 20:10

Leviticus does not apply to Christians:

 

Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the law.” Colossians 2:13-14 says that God "forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”

 

8. No trying to divorce your wife, Matthew 19:9,

LDS polygamy allowed rules for divorce. Unlike Biblical polygamy that did not allow for divorce.

It allowed for consent to marry to the women and allowed for divorce for the women.

9. No commiting adultery (while husband traveling), Proverbs 7:18-19,

From Mormonr

 

Did Joseph have sex with his plural wives who had legal husbands?

 

Possibly, though it seems unlikely that sexual polyandry would have gone undetected or uncontested by the legal husband, especially ones who were disaffected, excommunicated, or never Latter-day Saints.[179] There is some historical evidence that may support this arrangement for two of Joseph's polyandrous marriages;[180] however, historians disagree on this subject.[181][182]

https://mormonr.org/qnas/VvSJBb/joseph_smith_and_polygamy

 

10. No forgiveness for second strike adultery, D&Cov 42:26

D+C 42:25-26

25 But he that has committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive;

26 But if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.

Smith practiced polygamy.

 

11. No fornication with the maid, 1 Corinthians 7:2,

Smith practiced polygamy.

12. No acquiring many wives after becoming king, Deut 17:15-17

This advice would have been handy for Biblical leaders.

Deuteronomy does not apply to Christians:

Romans 10:4 says, “Christ is the end of the law.” Colossians 2:13-14 says that God "forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.”